Showing posts with label Elidir Fawr. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Elidir Fawr. Show all posts

Wednesday, 25 February 2009

Update: Marchlyn Mawr German Wreck?

German Plane in Marchlyn Mawr?
Marchlyn Mawr
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

Rob the Tog has looked further into the rumoured German plane in Marchlyn Mawr Reservoir on the Elidirs, and offers the following update:

"I’ve gone through the Caernarfon and Denbigh Herald, for the years 1974, 75 and 76. The short summary is that no German aircraft were found in that period. I was working on this statement from RJMP;“My guess is that my mother wrote and told me about the aircraft discovery while I was in Singapore in 1974, but I have no idea when in the year it would have been. I hope that helps a little!"

Hence the reason for starting with 1974, however none of the indirect evidence regarding Dinorwic ties them into that time. If the lake was low/drained in 1974, I can’t link it to Dinorwic. I’ll list all of the information I found below, most of it ties relates to the PowerStation. But if you take note of the dates, you will see why I can’t tie anything to RJMP story. The italics below are my thoughts on the information I found, the date relates to the paper publication date.

1 Feb 1974 – Official confirmation from the treasury authorising the finance necessary for the Dinorwic Hydro scheme. Already into 1974 and nothing has started. I don’t know how this links into RJMP saying construction on access roads had started in ‘73, any construction would have to have been down to Welsh national water as at that time they owned the lake and not related.

22 Feb 1974 – One of the first contracts awarded for the Dinorwic station, awarded to Mowlem, for construction of access and exploratory tunnels, first stage includes access roads and drainage works. Completion of this contract starting this month is scheduled for July 1975 in 18 months time. It might have been this work starting that RJMP is thinking about? I guess it depends on the date he went out the Far East.

10 May 1974 – Work has begun to provide an alternative supply of water to replace Machlyn Mawr, which is to be used as the upper lake in the Dinorwic scheme.

4 July 1975 – Dinorwic starting “tunnel miner training scheme” starting August ’75. It is estimated that tunnelling will be done 24 hour day with three shifts on 10 separate faces. Dinorwic has been contracted to take almost 70% local labour for the construction of the Power Station, they are only starting to gear up for digging now, I can’t see why the lake would be low in ’74 when they are not ready to tunnel for more than a year later.

19 Sept 1975 – “Two lakes change hands” Ffynnon Llugwy to Welsh National water, in return for Machlyn Mawr to Central Electricity Generating Board … the latter will now be enlarged. More against 1974 time line.

3 Oct 1975 – It is rumoured that the contract for construction of the 2000ft dam at Machlyn Mawr has been awarded to Gleeson Company.

28 Nov 1975 – 6 works workers injured in ventilation shaft on Elidir Fawr. Shaft incomplete but first indication of actual tunnelling.

2 April 1976 – “There’s Wrecks in them their Hills” Full page article from Arthur Evans talking about aviation archaeology and the group they have going at the time. I’m getting a copy of this article to double check there is no mention of the aircraft, but this could cause a problem. The only date I’ve found for Machlyn Mawr being drained is March 1976, and then just days/weeks later this article appears, so surely if there was an aircraft in there it would have been mentioned. I only spotted this date tonight, so next time I go back I’ll double check around early ’76 just to make sure.

I’m prepared to go back (probably be next week though) and have another look at maybe a few more years (and I said to double check early ’76). There is the small possibility that I might have missed the story, the early issues of the paper didn’t have a traditional front page, and the stories were buried inside. Although for this to have happened, the story would only have had to have been mentioned in a footnote, as I’m sure I would spot it if it was a main story. Going by the other stories published, I’m sure a German bomber turning up would have caused a stir. There is the possibility that the C&D Herald isn’t the paper that had the report, (I don’t know how to check that) but even if it wasn’t I can’t believe there still wouldn’t mention of the event.

The other thing that bothers me about this is the total lack of any other evidence. Surely on a construction project that size, and with active aviation archaeology group in the area, I just can’t see how something can be in that lake and been lost from memory, someone would have written about it at some point. Surely word would have gone round and hundreds of people would go for a look. The other thing that slightly bothers me, is that the date is relatively close to the date that tail section of the Dak was lifted from Llyn Dulyn (1973 going by the date of “After the battle”), maybe there is a possibility of a mix up or misunderstanding happening?"

Wednesday, 10 December 2008

Blenheim V6099: Elidirs-continued....

Blenheim V6099
Skua/Beaufighter: Elidir Fawr
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig2

The continuing saga of Elidir Fawr: are there actually four planes on the mountain, but we have the wrong four? RJMP, a sixties/seventies wreckhunter reports as follows:

"We thought at the time that the wreck on the NW side of Elidir Fawr was a Beaufighter, because that is what the RAF Valley lists said, but I accept that it is probably a Blenheim. They were very similar of course.

I knew all of the Blenheim's wreckage long before ‘aviation archeologists' and others started moving it all around (And of course, when it was only 25 years old, not 65 years old!!). I recovered various live .303 rounds I remember. All the wreckage on this side of the mountain is from one wreck. The wreckage extends from the point of impact, where the burned wreckage is to be found, right down into Marchlyn Bach. There were no engines in those days (mid 60s to early 70s), so they were either well buried or more likely recovered.

The Skua is indeed on the other side of the mountain.


Interestingly, I once found a single small piece of wreckage at around SH613618, away from the Blenheim wreckage trail. At the time I considered it to be what I called an ‘erratic’ (glaciologists will know what I mean) – a piece of the Blenheim that had been carried here and then discarded.

A few years later, when construction of the Marchlyn Mawr dam was commenced, they actually drained the lake in order to build the dam footings and presumably to dig the tunnel down to the turbines in the Dinorwic quarry. When they drained the lake they found a German aircraft in the bottom of the lake, complete with crew remains! There was a report in the local newspaper about it, which I didn't see, but my father did. I have wondered since whether the small piece of wreckage I found came from this wreck. I have never seen any other reference to the aircraft in the lake. "


I have written to the council to see if they know anything about the German 'plane. I'll see if I can track down the local paper report.

So it seems to be Tomahawk on the summit, Blenheim on the west side, Skua on the east, and a German plane in the lake. No Beaufighter. We'll be back in summer to see if we can find the evidence to back up the reports. In the meantime, research continues.

Thursday, 4 December 2008

Blenheim V6099: Elidirs

Blenheim V6099: Elidirs
Blenheim: Elidirs
Originally uploaded by wreckhunter

We didn't manage to get out again this week, but "Rob the Tog" did, and he reports as follows on the Elidir Fawr sites mixup issue:

"I've just managed my first trip in quite a long time. It was up the Blenheim/Skua sites on Elidir Fawr. I just though I'd run my thoughts past you to see what you think.

Firstly, I've got to agree with you the mystery Beaufighter doesn't exist, just a simple mix up in identification on the 'scrap dealers' list.

If that is the case, then I think all three areas of wreckage on this side of the hill are from Blenheim V6099, I'll explain why.

If you are discounting the Beaufighter then the undercarriage and oleo comes from the Blenheim as the as the Skua has a totally different u/c set up.That must make the high site with the small cairn and burnt area the actual crash site of the Beaufighter and the u/c is on the direct fall line from this site.

In all the sites I've been to, even with people moving things, the heavy items always end up down the slope. This only becomes important to rule out the pile of aluminium skin as a crash site.

I know this pile matches the 'High Ground Wrecks & Relics' co-ords. But something doesn't feel right, as there is no evidence of anything else, no burning, no little scraps etc, at that site.

My theory is that these pieces of skin have blown down the face then someone has collected them and cached them there for what ever reason (probably quite a long time ago). Then 'High Ground Wrecks' has mistakenly called this the crash site.

This has then cased a second mistake in 'High Ground Wrecks'. With the Beaufighter crash supposedly accounted for, they have called the high site the Skua crash. So making one crash into two, I know it might sound a bit far fetched but, 'High Ground Wrek' is riddled with mistakes when you start going though it in detail.

I know what you're thinking, 'in that case where is the Skua?'. The short answer is on the other side of the mountain. I haven't got any grid refs, but I found threes small pieces of info that back my hunch up.

Firstly, page 91, 'No landing place' ... Skua, "Flew into the east face of Elidir Fawr.

Secondly, comment 8 on the scrap dealers list (I don't know who they are but they do seem to know what they are talking about) ... "No 28, marks the summit of the mountain (I've checked it does) half-way between the Blenheim and Skua". That says to me, if it's half way between and the Blenheim is on one side then the Skua is on the other.

Thirdly (and by far the most tenuous). If you google L3054, about the fourth hit down is a .pdf called 'A cultural guide to a low level route ......' but the point is the bit mentioning the crash also mentions the aircraft flying into the east face.

So that's it, in short to try to clear things up we need to have a look see if there is crash in the east face of Elidir Fawr."

Seems a convincing argument for further investigation to us, though it'll be best done without snow on the ground judging from his pic.

We'll also visit the summit sometime to look for the Cessna and any evidence of the other crashes. Unless someone else wants to report on the foot of the east face, and the summit for us?

Hopefully we won't turn into another couple of armchair wreckhunters. Or worse yet, self-important no-life anoraks, like certain of our more unbalanced correspondents.

Tuesday, 28 October 2008

Elidir Fawr and Elidir Fach

Elidir Fawr and Elidir Fach
Elidir Fawr
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig2

A Wales trip yesterday, we set out with no great hopes of finding any of the three known, and one disputed wreck sites on Elidir Fawr and Elidir Fach. Elidir Fawr has a power station hidden inside it, and is therefore also known as Electric Mountain.

On top of "Electric Mountain", in that cloud somewhere, might well be some remains from the crash of Piper Tomahawk G-BOCC, but we weren't up for the final ascent on the day. The Tomahawk's pilot spent several hours conscious and badly injured hanging over a long, steep drop before he was rescued. Not his best day ever, I shouldn't imagine.

The crash site is allegedly very close to the remains of a Beaufighter according to the Snowdonia scrap dealer's list. They don't call themselves scrap dealers, they think they are aviation archaeologists. However, since most of the stuff they "recovered" quasi-legally from the mountains of Wales ended up weighed in for scrap, it seems the fairest description. Archaeologists do not deal in scrap metal.

We did find wreckage where these Diddycoys said they found Hercules engines from a Beaufighter. We understand however that majority opinion would be that this wreckage is from a Skua which crashed there, or even from the Blenheim crash site (600m away, according to "High Ground Wrecks"). Skuas did not have Bristol Hercules engines. They did however have Bristol Perseus engines. These have 9 cylinders, vs 14 for the Hercules. Could it be that they just couldn't count that high? Of course, if the grave-robbers hadn't weighed the identifiable bits of the the 'plane in, we'd be in a better position to comment on what they saw!

We also found some bits on the slopes of Elidir Fach which were unarguably from Blenheim V6099. It doesn't appear on the previously mentioned list, but it's definitely on the hill.

So we found a fair bit more than expected, and were back down in time for a spot of fish and chips. All good.

Since we posted this we have had some correspondence which suggests that we should not criticise people we have not met.

OK, we take it all back. That guy Hitler was probably just misunderstood too. What do we know, we never met him.

Blackburn B-24 Skua Mk.II L3054 or Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV V6099?

Blackburn B-24 Skua Mk.II L3054 or Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV V6099?
Skua/Beaufighter: Elidir Fawr
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig2

We think the molten aluminium mixed in with these more recognisable components show this to be the burn-out site of this disputed wreck site on Elidir Fawr.

There is a cairn immediately adjacent to this scatter of bits, perhaps indicating that someone else thought the same.

We are calling it as the Skua rather than a Beaufighter, based on what is there to be seen now. It might even be more of the Blenheim. That would be a long wreckage trail, mind.

Location:SH 60976 61526


More info

Blackburn B-24 Skua Mk.II L3054 or Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV V6099?

Blackburn B-24 Skua Mk.II L3054 or Bristol Blenheim Mk.IV V6099?
Skua/Beaufighter: Elidir Fawr
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig2

The lowest sizeable bit we found near the HGW coordinates for the Skua. Looks to be a bit of undercarriage and associated oleo strut.

There is some evidence that this might be a bit of the Blenheim, despite being much closer to High Ground Wrecks' Skua site.

A correspondent tells us that the undercarriage is from a Blenheim. (I would say suggests, but the correspondent is not a person who suggests, but rather expects to be beleived on the basis of his own unrealistic self-appraisal) This is easily possible, though the photos offered as evidence are far from conclusive.

No-one is presently offering any convincing evidence to dispute that any of the other suspected Skua parts are from a Blenheim. No-one other than this correspondent, and his mate have offered any opinion, despite the photos having been posted on the Aero Part Identity Board since 28/10/2008.

Location: SH 60900 61740

More info