UK Air Crash Sites Photos

Here's my flickr site, with my archive of crash site photos. You can see grid refs/coordinates for all of the pictured sites on here.

Republic P-47D-1-RE Thunderbolts, 42-7872 and 42-7898

I had a great day out with Ian DB last Saturday on and around Shining Tor, near Macclesfield. All of the pics for these four sites are c/o Ian, who is a lot better at photography than I am. You can see more examples of this at his site here.

This pic shows the leading plane's impact crater. All of the wreckage seen last time is gone, though a bit of skinning and a new cross have replaced it. The nearby crater of the following plane no longer has any visible wreckage t all.

These two sites are a bit awkward to get to, well away from the path, over a fence and down some steepish roughish ground. There is no reason to suspect they are there is you don't know that they are. This is not the work of "curious walkers". It smells of anorak to me.

Locations:

SJ 99502 75395 (leading)
SJ 99502 75410 (following)

Airspeed Oxford Mk.I LX745

Looking much as it did back in 2007, despite being very easily accessible from the nearby well-trafficked path, the Oxford site was the third of the four sites visited last Saturday. The pic shows the main wreckage pool. There is also a fuel tank partially buried nor far away.


Locations:

Wreckage pictured is at SJ 99800 74629.
Fuel tank at SJ 99813 74648.

Noorduyn UC-64A Norseman 43-35439

The disputed Norseman site looks much the same as last time we visited, and established that it was a US 'plane rather than Defiant Mk.I T3921, as some had claimed.

Location: SJ 99831 73579

North American F. Mk.4 Sabres (or are they Canadair CL-13s?) XD707 and XD730 :

Pat Cunningham (in the pic) offers the following information about the crash of two Sabres from No.66 Squadron, RAF Linton-on-Ouse, No. 12 Group, Fighter Command onto Kinder Scout and Black Ashop Moor on 22 July 1954 in which the formating pilots (Flying Officer James D. Horne, section leader (XD707) and Flight Lieutenant Alan Green, formating pilot (XD730)) were both killed.

When Russian-built swept-wing MiG-15 jet fighters were encountered in Korea in 1950, British manufacturers had nothing to match them. British transonic swept-wing fighters were under development to replace the straight-winged subsonic Meteors and Vampires, but until the Hunter arrived in 1955, Canadian-built Sabres filled the void. Held to be pleasant to fly, most of the Sabres were based in Germany, but No.66 Squadron was among those units equipped with them in Britain.

So it was that on 22 July 1954, four of the No.66 Squadron Sabres were recovering to Linton-on-Ouse, near York, after a high-level interception sortie flown in the course of a major annual-evaluation war-game. For the descent, the formation leader had split his section into pairs, each pair entering cloud independently at 12,000 feet.

Some time later, as his pair passed 5,000 feet, still in cloud, the overall leader transmitted an advisory warning to Flying Officer James Horne, now leading the second pair, against descending below 3,000 feet on their present heading: the more realistic safety height of the future was to be 3,800 feet. The foursome had noted already that Flying Officer Horne’s radio was weak at times, so he may not have heard the warning; certainly, he did not acknowledge.

Indeed nothing more was heard of him, or of his number two, until three days later when a walker came upon a body on The Edge, high above Black Ashop Moor. Until this discovery bad weather had hampered the search, although the keeper of the Kinder Reservoir had reported being alarmed by two jet fighters roaring at very low level towards cloud-covered Kinder. Despite his concern, however, he had heard no subsequent impact.

These aircraft had undoubtedly been the two Sabres, although what made Flying Officer Horne take his number two that low will never be known. A likely scenario, however, is that he saw a clearance below him, and dropped into what turned out to be a ‘sucker’s gap’ – a beckoning clearance which then closed in around him. Certainly, in his evidently hasty pull for a safe height, he managed to clear the edge of Kinder, but equally evidently something untoward happened after he had done so, for both aircraft struck the ground in a single impact point not many yards into the plateau.

To conjecture further, although Flight Lieutenant Alan Green, the number two, was more experienced than his leader, he was still settling in having been posted from another squadron. It could be then, that, caught out by the hastily initiated transition from level flight to very steep climb, he had – understandably – twitched just that little bit, causing his wingtip to lock with his leader’s tail. Or what is equally likely, bearing in mind that both aircraft were in very steep climbing attitudes, is that, in reaction to his leader’s over-hasty pull, Flight Lieutenant Green had pulled even harder, got high, and being momentarily unsighted from his leader, had collided in blindly pushing back into position.

The court of inquiry, however, did not treat with such speculation, finding only that Flying Officer Horne, as section leader, had failed to observe the area safety height – which he should have been familiar with regardless of any missed transmission – although it found some little mitigation in his faulty radio. It specifically noted that no blame was to be attached to Flight Lieutenant Green, whose sole responsibility had been to formate upon his leader.

Locations

SK 06926 89664 Kinder: initial impact point, start of debris trail (illustrated above)

SK 07268 90236 Black Ashop Moor: wings, gear, with an engine in an adjacent grough

SK 07300 90100 Black Ashop Moor, two debris pools

SK 07548 90390 Black Ashop Moor, the second engine

I note that there is a lot less here then in my last pic. Theft and vandalism by sad anoraks as usual.

Douglas Skymaster C-54G-5-DO 45-543

A day out in the Trough of Bowland with some Flickr buddies as well as Hal and Steve located this undercarriage leg from a cargo 'plane whose instruments were supposedly seduced when returning from the Berlin airlift by the call of a commercial radio station to fly into Stake House Fell.

Were there any commercial radio stations in 1949? Wotherspoon's suggestion of a BBC station seems more likely.

Location:SD 55650 49425
More info: here

Lockheed Lightning P38G 42-13345/F5E 44-24229

A day out in the vicinity of Aberystwyth earlier in the week to look at a two sites with Matt ZX and a couple of our regulars.

First up the infamous and contentious Plynlimon Lightning, about which you'll see very little reliable information on the internet (other than this) - was it for example Lightning F5E 44-24229 or P38 42-13345?

More contentious and far more interesting to non-anoraks is who did this:


Who cut the turbocharger out of this wing and took it home back in 2003/2004? Here's what it used to look like pre-vandalism:



There's a sizeable reward for information leading to recovery...

Location: SN 79840 86523

More info:

Avro Anson Mk. I EG472

Avro Anson EG472
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

We approached Moel Hebog from a new direction yesterday, resulting in our locating the undercarriage, wheels, fuel tank and other less recognisable wreckage left by the crash of Anson EG472 into the mountain, (and of course the subsequent raiding by local "aviation archaeologists" for their mickey mouse "museum").

It wasn't as easy as we expected, as chest-high bracken which didn't show on the map impeded our progress up the steepest part of the hill.

The picture shows a detail from the undercarriage winding gear of Avro Anson EG472 of 9 OAFU Llandwrog which crashed on the 13th of June 1944 into Moel Hebog (above Beddgelert in Snowdonia).

The 'plane reportedly flew into the North face of the mountain in low cloud and bad visibility on a night navigation exercise.

Turbulence was experienced at 6,000 ft and the Bombardier asked the pilot if he could descend to a calmer altitude.

The Navigator stated they were over Hawarden so the descent was made and the aircraft struck the mountain. One Sgt. Howard was thrown clear and survived, but the other four crew were all killed in the crash.

We don't normally bother with crash report details on here, but there's nothing on the internet about the circumstances of this crash at present.

Location: SH 56890 46948

De Havilland Mosquito Mk.III TV982

De Havilland Mosquito Mk.III TV982
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig2

Detail from collection further upstream

Location: SH 61085 52982

Martin Marauder B-26G 44-68072

Martin Marauder B-26G 44-68072
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

A day out with Matt ZX to see if we could find anything from the Marauder crash site on Y Garn yesterday.

The photo shows what we believe to be the impact point of this medium bomber of the Western face of Y Garn, Snowdonia. The parallel lines of scree are deepish scrapes which have filled over time with small stones. The site location was proven correct by the presence of some distinctive bits of aircraft aluminium, as shown in the entry below.

David Earl reports that the aircraft broke in two from here, with one bit staying with one of the crew on the Llanberis side, and the remainder of the crew and 'plane going over the edge to break up and scatter in the valley below. An old-time wreckhunter has written to tell us that by the early 60s only the props lay on this side of the hillside, the wing sections seemingly having been pushed over the cliff.

Using telescopes and binoculars from the summit, we established that the undercarriage and other bits not weighed in for scrap by the local magpies are still present. We will return by the Eastern route to get photos and accurate locations for the scattered wreckage on a later trip.

Location of impact point: SH 62842 59856

Location of undercarriage:SH 631 602

Martin Marauder B-26G 44-68072

Martin Marauder B-26G 44-68072
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

Site proving debris

More info

Avro Lancaster W4929 Coded AJ-J

AVRO LANCASTER W4929 CODED AJ-J
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The bent crankshafts from two Merlin engines in the foreground and just behind Mick are some of the largest bits in this 4m by 20m scar left in the hillside by the impact of a Lancaster bomber.

Location: SN 82793 23892

We have received the following information about this site from the aircrew remembrance society:

Lancaster W4929 H.C.U. crashed on the 5th September 1943 with the loss of all the crew:

Took off from Winthorpe for a night cross country training flight. They flew into a heavy storm over the Brecon Beacons and crashed at 23.20hrs.

Two of the commonwealth crew are buried in Hereford Cemetery (F/O Folkersen R.C.A.F. Fl/Sgt. Buckby R.A.A.F.), Sgt Curran was interred in Bath Cemetery. P/O Duxbury and Sgt Holding are buried in Standish, Wigan. Sgt Wilson is buried in Clitheroe Cemetery, Sgt Pratt at Hemel Hempstead, P/O Johnson D.F.M. was cremated at Woking Crematorium.

Blackburn Botha Mk.I L6202 coded 6-20

Blackburn Botha L6202: Llwytmor
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The highest, and most commonly found engine from this Botha, which crashed on Llwytmor on the 28th August 1943 while on a training flight from Hooton Park near Ellesmere Port.

There is plenty more wreckage all over the hillside in the vicinity of this engine, which is located very close to the aircraft's impact site.

Location: SH 68378 69129

Blackburn Botha Mk.I L6202 coded 6-20

Blackburn Botha L6202: Llwytmor
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The elusive second engine from the Botha below the waterfall on Afon Goch.

This is 570m from the other, more commonly photographed one stuck in the crack in the rocks, and is the only picture of this lower engine on the 'net. Others say they have seen it, but as so often the case in the world of "wreckology", they offer no proof.

Location: SH 67810 69131

More info

Armstrong Vickers Wellington Mk 10 MF509

Wellington MF509
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The extensive remains of this RCAF Wellington on Carreg Goch, Black Mountain, Brecon Beacons, with memorial in the foreground.

A little documentary video can be seen at the link below. Nice that the National Park staff coordinated opposition to it being taken away to someone's garden in Preston, rather than colluding in it, as we are told they did in Snowdonia.

Location: SN 81618 16921

More info

Gloster Meteor F.8 WA794

IMG_0034
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The circular scar where this Meteor from RAF 5 CAACU met a wall of granite on Yr Eifl in poor visibility on 11th October 1957, unsurprisingly killing the pilot.

The pile of boulders below the scar allegedly covers the small wreckage not looted by the usual suspects, but we found not a scrap of metal at the site.

Location: SH 36068 45892

More info

World's End

World's End
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

Went up to a place called World's End above Minera (near Wrexham)on Monday in a fair bit of snow looking for some of the wrecks up there. Four are given in High Ground Wrecks: Beaufighter NE203, Spitfire TE210, Fulmar N4074, and Master N7442.

As with last week in Yorkshire, we found nothing anywhere near the HGW coordinates for the ones we got to.

A great day out though, and we had the added excitement of very nearly losing the Landy over a steep bank. Excitement is not quite the right word though, we were a few inches from a 30m drop sideways.

The road is basically impassable in any amount of snow, as even locals were finding out the hard way. Quite a few people went past points of no return, and we had to take a couple of carfuls back down to safety as dark closed in. I should imagine this has been world's end for a few drivers over the years, as well as all those pilots.

Avro Lancaster Mk. I W4326 'C' Charlie

An update on what happened with respect to the Dolwen Lancaster is in order, as the information we have received since our original posting has proved so interesting. We know that the "Aviation Archaeologists" who we usually refer to as scrap merchants were ungifted amateurs, but this is the saddest story yet!

We hear that one of the scrap merchants (who we might refer to as Rhys) applied for a licence to dig this site (where seven men died) in the late 1980s.

Now, applying for a licence to dig is not the big deal that wreckologists make out, and even at death sites like this one, they don't seem to check that you are even who you say you are, or care too much whether you have any relevant qualifications, or ask what you intend to do with the "recovered " items to any degree of rigour.

They don't even seem to care much if you have previous convictions for grave robbing. Grave robbing is an important concept here. It is the basis of the legislation which is supposed to protect these sites.

When records show that a body was recovered, that only means that 7lb (3kg) of remains were found. The rest is quite possibly still in the ground. All sites where deaths occurred are grave sites, though naturally the grave robbers dispute this.

Still, someone couldn't wait: we are told that one of the other scrap merchants (let's call him Bethesda Dave) heard of this and decided to beat him to it, excavating the site without a licence, and taking away two of the engines, and a few other saleable bits.

There is a picture of the dig in process in Edward Doylerush's "No Landing Place". Obviously "Rhys" wasn't pleased by his mate nicking what he considered to be his scrap, and this caused something of a rift back at the scrapyard.

One of the engines was broken up and sold in pieces. Some of these bits have since appeared on eBay.

The other engine is apparently in the Caernarfon Airworld"Museum", unlabelled as to its origin, and with various bits replaced with bits obtained elsewhere. They do not own it, it is merely on loan from the person who illegally recovered it.

Bits which couldn't be sold were left in situ, crowned with the added insult of a Welsh flag marking the graves of the entirely non-Welsh crew, signifying perhaps the feeling of ownership diggers have for wreck sites, and belying their so often made false claims of honouring the war dead.

Whether the man who makes little model aircraft from melted down plane wreckage bought scraps of illegally dug wreckage on eBay or simply collected it himself, we do not know. We do however know that he is advertising models made from the fabric of this aircraft.

Short of digging up one of the crew's skulls and taking a dump in it, we can't see how much more immorally and illegally these people might have acted. Yet nothing seems to be happening to them.

Can we call these people "Archaeologists", as diggers like to style themselves?

What sort of archaeologist cares about nothing other than the showiest items, and leaves everything else behind in piles?

What sort of archaeologist claims the site for his country, irrespective of the origin of the human remains to be found there?

What sort of archaeologist only displays items in a mickey-mouse "museum" which cannot even be bothered to label its exhibits?

What sort of archaeologist breaks up what he excavates, and sells it on eBay?

No sort of archaeologist at all, and I'm not just talking about the Welsh contingent. Pretty much all of you other sad anorak BAAC amateurs are as pitiful as this lot, just a little less uninhibited.

We also read that when "Time Team" decided to swim in the murky waters of "Aviation Archaeology" by digging up a Spitfire in France, they unearthed human remains too. Glossed over that bit in the programme, despite the French having no law to protect crash sites.

At least they didn't feature wreckologists in home made jumpsuits with "Air Crash Investigator" badges (no doubt sewn on by their mums), as they did in certain other episodes. If you are willing to humiliate yourself that much to get on the telly, you should be auditioning for "Big Brother".

We got the following comment from the guy who makes little models from bits of crashed 'planes:

Your comments on your blog have been brought to my attention and I am concerned about them.

You have taken it upon yourself to question my companies integrity further more you have put a link to my web site with out my permission . This I fined very offensive.

My models are all made from legally obtained parts . Therefore I ask you to remove the link to my website, your comments about me, and publish a public apology. Within the next seven (7) days from the date of this letter. Your frailer to comply with my requests will leave me with no alternative but to seek professional advice re further action to be taken, regarding the deformation of my character.

With regards
Mr R Ruddock

We replied:

So someone has wound you up, and set you going, have they?

I suggest you go and get that legal advice before you write again. You seem not to understand your legal position.

Your legal advisor will tell you that a person who buys from thieves has not made a legal purchase, and that there is no legal requirement to ask permission to place a weblink to someone's web site.

My information is that no licence has been granted for this site. I will withdraw my comment and apologise unreservedly if you show me proof that the excavation which produced your raw materials was done under MOD licence.

Perhaps you could tell me who you bought your metal from, and whether you have seen a copy of the MOD licence to excavate?

In the absence of such evidence, I will continue to believe what I have been told, which implies that your company is making models (and money)from metal illegally removed from a war grave. Like any reasonable person, I consider this contemptible.

Some spelling lessons might be an idea too. Legal threats are so much more convincing when they come from people with an apparent reading age above ten, unlike yourself.

The words you were looking for were:

Company's
Without
Find
Failure
Defamation

Regards
Seán

Avro Lancaster Mk. I W4326 'C' Charlie

Dolwen Lancaster
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

We went out yesterday for a look at the Dolwen Lancaster. We knew it had been "recovered" a few years back, so were unprepared for how much skinning and other components might have been left behind by wreckologists clearly interested only in engines.

There is a lot. We'd still class this site as at least a "medium" on the High Ground Wrecks gradings. The HGW coords are pretty good too.

We understand the soft ground meant that the engines were exceptionally well-preserved. We believe one of them to be in the Caernarvon Airworld "museum". Where the others are we do not know.

We understand the guy previously mentioned on here who makes the little model 'planes from melted down wreckage has also visited this site.

This is Matt ZX with the crater and wreckage piles in the background

Avro Lancaster Mk. I W4326 'C' Charlie

Dolwen Lancaster
Originally uploaded by seansonofbig

The larger of the two wreckage piles